Who gets to be in charge of creating reality?
One of the themes of my book is that people who are in the position of speaking for God are in a position of great power. They get to say what reality is not only in this life, but in the next as well. The code we use to make decisions about what is right and wrong, determines to a large degree, how we perceive the world and the others who inhabit this space with us. Our religious perspective often determines who we favor and who we reject, who we see as friend or foe, and even sometimes who we can kill with impunity. In more fundamentalist societies, the extent to which “reality” is controlled by religious doctrine can be so great that the followers have little ability to conceive anything beyond the prescriptions given them by their leader. We can see the effects of this kind of mind control in groups such as that led by Warren Jeffs and it is easy to become outraged and worried about the children who have no escape.
In my story, Beth comes to realize that she has been under the control of men who say they speak for God. The same is true for her mother and her father and the Bishop. They have all been hearing the same stories, passed down since the mid-eighteen hundreds, originating from Joseph Smith, told and refined over time. It’s the stories that create the reality – stories in the form of scriptures, or sermons, or even as testimony. The same thing being said again and again and again. Warren Jeffs is a product of that. He grew up behind a fifteen foot wall. We used to drive by it when I was kid and I would see the three peaked roofs of the buildings where the polygamists lived. Evidently, he was a kid not very well liked by the other kids. But he stood by his father when he was dying. Became the one who would “relay” his father’s words in the last days, or so I’ve read. And so he was in a position to say he’d been designated by his father as the next prophet. The thing I wonder is, what did it feel like when he took on this power? Did he wonder why God wasn’t talking to him, when he was supposed to be the prophet? Or did he believe he was talking to God? Did he gradually, or suddenly, recognize the power he had, to tell the people what they could and could not do? Did he test it? Did he say, okay today I’m going to tell them they can’t wear red? And the next day, that they couldn’t have pets? Or whatever, he came up with. Evidently, when he was in prison, in Purgatory Prison in Hurricane, Utah, he confessed that he wasn’t really the prophet.
What I want to know is, do these people, these men, in most cases, who rise through the ranks of the world’s religions and find themselves at the top, the ones who are supposed to be in touch with God. Do they suddenly have a crisis of faith if they speak to God and he doesn’t speak back? Or do they really talk to God? Does he tell them how to lead the lives of others? Does he give specific instructions of what the people must do?
My father always wanted to talk to God. He believed it was possible. I think he wanted a personal relationship where he could ask his questions and not have to rely on an interpreter for the answers. Even in the latter days of his life, when he was well into his Alzheimer’s he was still looking for God. I went to the desert to see him in his little house near Hurricane, Utah, and found him wearing a sweater in the blazing heat. He must have been terribly dehydrated; perhaps he’d been abstaining from food or drink, in the way of the prophets of old. I took him into his little house and gave him water and sat with him. We looked at each and I asked him if he was all right, I was not asking about his physical state, but his mental state — was he okay with not knowing who he was or who I was. He shook his head yes and his eyes shone and tears rolled down his cheeks and he said, “I talked to him.”
I said, “Who?”
His answer came in a whisper, “I talked to God.”
From the look on his face, I couldn’t help but believe it was true, for him, if for no one else.
I find myself wanting to talk to God, but I’m not sure who or what God is at this point. I’m like my father, I guess. I want a direct relationship. I want to discover for myself who God is. I don’t want someone else telling me.
Do you?
March 15, 2009 at 11:15 am
Hi Zoe. I am a seventh generation Mormon who left the church years ago. My mother died of leukemia in 1988. She was a very impressionable person and she believed literally, not only the scriptures, but what was said by the Bishop and other leaders in sacrament meetings etc. They had a lot of power over her and she came to believe she would not go to heaven because she could not do all that was required, or because she had a date with another man while taking night classes (no sex involved.) Before she died, I am told that she had a spiritual experience and found peace with her God in the sense that she knew all would be well.
There is an inherent dichotomy between what the Mormon leaders teach on the subject of the infallibility on the Church leaders and the teaching that each member can speak to God on his or her own. One the one hand, members cannot contradict what the prophet or apostles teach or say, yet members are told to seek a personal communication with God. However, if your spiritual experience diverges from Mormon Church doctrine, you’re in trouble. Mormons are told that if your spiritual experience is anything other than sanctioned doctrine, it’s of the devil. So, there is no way out for Mormons and they live with that inherent fear that their spiritual experiences better line up with the “truth.”
There really is only one God and that God is within us and without us; it is nature and the fabric of life; the fabric of the universe if you will. It is love. We delude ourselves if we think we own God. We cheat ourselves if we believe that others’ spiritual experiences are of the devil for the naive reason that it does not necessarily validate one’s own belief system.
Your father spoke to God, just as millions have for millenia, and he found peace with life. I have spoken to God, and I have come to believe, based on that, that Mormons definitely do not have the exclusive ownership of God. He/She/It belongs to all of us.
March 16, 2009 at 8:52 am
Zoe, Excellent observation! I have thought the very same thing! I truly believe these people are atheists, I know it sounds extreme at first, but… Here you are a leader of a religious group which you had to have a belief in at one time, to be where you are. God has not spoken to you, so at this point you know you are not “the one” per say. So how can you continue to portray yourself as the peoples’ voice to God? You know that you are misleading all your followers. If you truly believed there was a God then you would be too afraid to keep up the charade. Have you ever read about the World Wide Church of God, when the new leaders took control and decided to be honest with the people, they lost most of their members, but they must have believed in something to risk being honest with the people? Another relevant issue, was when it came out that mother Teresa questioned God’s existence. I was amazed, not that she doubted, but that it got out. I think the main driving force behind all religions is not as deity but rather the dollar. (:
March 18, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Just clearing up the misunderstanding that Mormons /LDS are associated with Warren Jeffs. This is a Common misconception of Mormonism. Warren Jeffs Is an X-Mormon. He got angry when Polygamy was discontinued and created his own church called The Fundamentalist Church Of Jesus Christ, and was Ex-Communicated from the church.
Mormons- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints do not practice POlygamy nor have they since the 1800′s. Fundamentalist is to Mormon what Protestant is to Catholic. We Share some of the same beliefs but they broke off from the church so they differ in others(such as Polygamy)
March 18, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Thanks for your comment. It is interesting that you should worry that I am confusing the mainstream Mormon Church with the Fundamentalist off-shoots, such as the one led by Warren Jeffs. My book, Torn by God: A Family’s Struggle with Polygamy, probably shows the separation between the two as well as any other book on the market. But I did grow up just down the road from where Warren Jeffs grew up, so when I see and hear his name in the media, there is a personal connection and I do reference him in some of my discussions.
Zoe
March 18, 2009 at 6:39 pm
ok well I haven’t read your book, I just saw him referenced in your blog, and saw on your twitter where you searched Mormon Polygamy and had an interest in “Mormons” so it appeared you were confusing us with the fundamentalist Mormons and seeing as that is a common misconception (even my neighbor thought we were the same) I wanted to clear that up and lmake you aware that Mormons do not practice polygamy anymore and any Mormon that does, gets excommunicated for doing so.
Greg, your right Mormons don’t own God, nor do we profess to. We are taught that each and every person on this earth is a son/daughter of God. He can speak to all of us I don’t know where you are getting all this because I was born and raised in the gospel and lived all over and not once was I under any impression that only God speaks to Mormons and only we own God. God is our Father. Everyone’s! We are all equal and no one is better than another. We can all pray to our Father and he can and will answer all of us. He loves us all.
I Love the Gospel. I know that Jesus Christ is our Savior and that he died to save us all. I know that he lives and that he will come again and redeem us from our sins if we have faith in him, come unto him and keep his commandments, repent and forsake our sins. I know that he loves us all and wants all of us to return to live with him. I know that Prophets are called of God and that they truly do speak with God, and are there as a guide to help us not control us. To help us find our way back to him again. If you pray,truly seeking answers and are willing to accept his answer, you will come to a knowledge of the truth.
http://www.mormon.org http://www.lds.org
March 18, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Hi Adchr: Although Mormons do not practice polygamy at the present, and not officially since the 1890′s, the Mormons and the Church still believe in polygamy and its efficacy; at least in the afterlife. The Church still believes polygamy will exist in the “Celestial” Kingdom and that those males here who have be “sealed” to more than one wife on Earth (such as my father who’s first wife died young and he married and was sealed a second time) will, with God’s blessings, have two or more wives forever in heaven. In addition, the Church still believes that those “lucky” males will continue to have sex and children forever in the Celestial Kingdom with their several wives – hence the denomination as the highest heaven. Also, the Church has failed to repeal the parts of DC 132 that command the practice of polygamy. So your efforts at drawing a distinction are quite inconsequential as there really is not much difference in the eternal scheme of things, is there? Greg
March 19, 2009 at 4:19 am
As long as the practice of Polygamy is “against the laws of this land” it will indeed be against the church standard, and while it is “possible” that it is continued in the afterlife, there is no promise that it will but I will say that if it does continue in the afterlife, it will be for the purpose of multiplying and replenishing with children and for the purpose of allowing all women to be sealed to another for eternity, rather than be single for eternity. Not for mere sexual gratification, as you are insinuating. The church leaders as a whole, and members of this church don’t think the way the lustful world we live in thinks. God created sexual intimacy for the purpose of bringing children/creating life. Not for pleasure.
March 19, 2009 at 7:20 am
Adchr: Thank you for your reply. I am certain that Joseph Smith wasn’t thinking the “way the lustful world thinks” when he married 49 wives, seven of whom were teenagers 16 and 17 years old. Nineteen of his wives were 25 or younger, so I am sure that Joseph Smith was concerned that they would never have the chance to be sealed on Earth and married those young ones for that purpose. In fact, Joseph Smith was so concerned that some of his wives be sealed for time and eternity that he married 14 women who were already married to good Mormon men. (Which resulted in some of them leaving the church.) I guess he wanted to be doubly sure they’d make it into the Kingdom.
Adchr; I am sure you are a good person, but you need to think outside the box. Read a bit of history related to the Mormon practice of polygamy and perhaps you’ll get a more robust picture of what really happened. I am sure that many Mormons practiced polygamy for many different reasons, some righteous and some for mere lust. My Great, great several times grandfather was a Utah polygamist who married 2 extra wives in Utah in 1850. I am a descendant of his first wife. In fact, I am a direct descendant of the Apostles N Eldon Tanner and Hugh B. Brown. I am sure they were good men.
My point in posting is not to antagonize or degrade your religion. I left the church in large part because the Church refused to tell the truth about its history. I would hope that you, as a practicing Mormon, would take the history of the Church seriously and not just accept the anecdotes offered up in Sunday school.
March 19, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I have a strong testimony of the Gospel . The lord has told me through peace, comfort,and the Holy Spirit. The church is true and it is his church and that, is enough for me. I won’t believe such things. The Holy spirit, and my own experiences tell me that what you say is false. I am done here. I came to clear up a misunderstanding with simple truth and that I have done. I didn’t come here to argue points. Take care
March 20, 2009 at 10:49 am
Greg,
You chased away Adchr . Now who are you going to talk to? I wish you would read my book and talk to that. It’s so much easier sometimes to say what you want to say in a story. I sincerely want to know what Mormons and ex-Mormons and non-Mormons make of it. I want to start a discussion. A philosophical discussion. I think you tell the truth as far as I can see, but it can still come across as an attack, as I’m afraid some of my words do. But I don’t want to start a fight and I don’t want to convince anyone that they are wrong. I think it is very important for humans to have a way to comprehend the unknown, whether it be through religious or scientific beliefs. For me ideas and concepts are sacred, in that each provides a set of possibilities through which reality can be considered. I want to be engaged in the exploration of all possibilities. But this can be difficult to explain. In no way am I an atheist. In fact, I feel myself to be a very spiritual person. But it is a personal experience, unsupported by a common consensus. When I first stepped out into this open space I felt the earth shake beneath my feet, but now things have stabilized and I feel quite comfortable. What do you think?
March 20, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Hi Zoe,
I guess it’s the lawyer in me. I tend to go for the kill at times. I am also quit frustrated with the Mormon psyche as you cannot get beyond the superficial with most of them when it comes to the philosophical; the metaphysical or just life’s mysteries. They have a programed reply that leaves you in a corner wondering if you’re actually talking to someone. The “I know it’s true” is an easy out for them – no more thinking. No more debate.
I suppose another aspect is more subtle. I think I still carry the trauma and pain of my Mormon experience and of leaving the church. I truly felt betrayed – betrayed to the core, when I discovered that the church lied and still lies about its past. In addition, as I became more liberal in my personal beliefs, I felt a profound disconnect between my personal beliefs and orientation and the conservative, paternalistic nature of the church. I just didn’t fit in.
I suppose another factor is that my family is long term Mormon; since 1832. I’m kind of out there on an island.
So, I tend to be a bit argumentative. But I am working on toning it down.
I, like you, do not consider myself to be atheist, yet my spirituality is by no means conventional. I have developed a “belief” system which continues to evolve and which takes from many different areas of thought and science. I concur wholeheartedly with your statement that it is important for humans to have a way to comprehend the unknown. If fact, that is the crux; the unknown and how we deal with not knowing. I feel that we cannot “know” what is and is meant to be unknown. To claim to know the truth is the greatest self deception.
So I have often asked myself, why did I leave the Mormon Church? In other words, why could I not stay in the Church? Did I simply choose to leave? I have come to believe, although I am not sure, that it was not a matter of choice. I didn’t choose to leave the Church anymore than I chose to be born with blue eyes. I am who I am and I am not a true-believing Mormon. I can’t change that, and I do not think I will be condemned for being me. But the Church has me in Hell, no matter what.
So yes, I guess I get angry at times with Mormon self righteousness. I get upset with the holier than thou attitude and I detest the smugness of the phrase: “I know the Church is true and that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God.” They can vote for Prop 8 and deny gays the right to marry or they can condemn me to Hell for my “apostasy” and they can do all that with the most innocent of smiles and the naive certainty of the righteousness of their cause.
I have learned that there is no way to have a meaningful philosophical discussion with a “true-believer.” From my experience, there are very few Mormons who are secure enough in their skin to really discuss the possibility that they really do not know.
Having said all of that, I have decided that the best way to approach these issues, as you stated, is through story. So I am off to my book writing and we’ll see what comes of it. Greg
March 21, 2009 at 11:07 am
Yes, Greg,
I do believe these things are best said in story because then it is not argument or persuasion, it is a presentation of the personal. A person’s experience cannot be denied, as we all experience the world, the Church, our parents, are upbringing and environment, etc., in different ways. I come from a family of eleven children, and even as I wrote my story I was keenly aware of the fact that each of the others would have a different version of the story, if they were to tell it. And each of those versions would be as valid as mine. I have had some wonderful correspond with some of my siblings, others I haven’t heard from.
I’ve also heard from practicing Mormons beyond my family and from their reaction I believe they found something of value in the story. Some stayed up all night reading it and immediately passed it on to friends. Even for non-Mormon readers, the book seems to take a lot of them back to powerful moments in their own childhood. I’m truly amazed at times by the response and the discussions that have come from this book. I value those discussions very much. Including this discussion with you.
Thank you.
Zoe
March 22, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Hi Zoe. I also value our discussions. Thank you. I am looking forward to the book. Greg BTW, not sure if I mentioned it, but I am also from a large family; I am the oldest of six children.
March 26, 2009 at 4:05 pm
D. Hahn,
I was just re-reading your comment above and it occurred to me that I didn’t know if you were seeing mainstream Mormons as atheists or if you were referring to fundamentalist Mormons. Or both.
Zoe
April 9, 2009 at 8:54 am
Hi Zoe ~
I loved spending time listening to you ruminate within the dreamworld of your life and novel. Your “presence” is so delicate, light and honest with itself.
I loved your reading from your novel… even the tentative manner of it… it made the story all the more poignant.
And your story is incredibly poignant.
On one level it may seem as if your parents life is a story of a life gone wrong… a life contextualized from the “outside”… in the sense of being defined and bounded by the shifting ideas of the Mormon Church. And therefor “lost” to something essential that we have all unknowingly discarded… an inner compass… a “universal” intelligence that we seem disengaged from… as we operate out of a sense of estranged fragmentation from the source… from “god”.
But that is not how it feels to me. All of our lives are moving within the currents of an error of perception. We artists hope and perhaps “believe” that art can save us from the worst effects of those powerful currents that are moving life along endlessly dangerous pathways of the mind. And perhaps art can act as a reflective mirror that can mitigate the “reflexive” nature of our inherited collective inner conflicts and confusions.
But your fathers wish to speak directly to god is precisely what we are all longing for… for a way back “into” life again… for a way to step out of this trap… these muddy waters.. the delusion of separation… separation from the “source” of life. We long to feel the exhilaration of being pure energy again.
In a very real sense the Mormon church has nothing to do with your fathers need to enter into a state of inclusion… of merging with the energies of life… of speaking with god.
We have constructed countless schemes… countless constructions… spiritual scaffolding upon which we have cast our hopes for this encounter with the source.
And they are all dangerous… they are all reflections of our inherent errors or perception.
At least your father tried… something in him was awakened… he tried to fulfill an “order” that became his driving force… something in him was stirred.
For me your novel asks many questions… and that is what a novel should do… leave us with a dangling question that moves us deeper into wondering what we are doing here and what is actually the truth.
With Great Affection ~ Richard
April 10, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Hi Richard. That was a wonderful post! Thanks. Greg